i got sucked into another discussion...

Ivy via Cortney

Police officer shot and killed at Virginia Tech

news.yahoo.com

A police officer has been shot and killed on Virginia Tech's campus during a routine traffic stop, according to the university. A second victim was found dead at another campus parking lot. The suspect is described as a white male wearing a maroon hoodie, and is still on the loose. Students are aske...

Like · · Unfollow Post · Share · Thursday at 9:04pm ·

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  Linus Wallin Oh my God... How about finally amending that 2nd amendment?

  Thursday at 9:09pm · Like · 1

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  Linus Wallin Those poor people...

  Thursday at 9:09pm · Like

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Patrick Linus-I agree...if the first victim had been armed, the police officer would likely be alive today...

Thursday at 11:26pm · Like

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Ivy ‎..and thus the cycle of violence continues...Linus Wallin I agree with you

Thursday at 11:30pm · Like

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Patrick My biggest question then would be this: When would the police turn theirs in? After all, they'd have no need for them once every city/state is as secure as Chicago or Washington DC (extremely tough gun control laws)...and not NEARLY as violent as places like Vermont...or NH...or even parts of Florida (that allow citizens to protect themselves) :)

Merry Christmas cuz...how's life treating you?

Thursday at 11:40pm · Like

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  Linus Wallin

OR, if the police were the only one's allowed to carry guns - maybe eventually you'd be as safe as ANYONE ANYWHERE IN THE WESTERN WORLD OUTSIDE OF THE U.S... "Oooh, there are too many shootings! Let's arm more people!" If you guys took a closer look at yourselves and then the world around you, you're so much less safe when it comes to gun related violence than anyone (outside of warzones and troubled areas in the world). How come no one else comes close to your rate of shootings? Also "protecting yourself" in Vermont sounds like something you really need to do. Or could it be that the areas you mention are, for reasons other than firearms, safer? Chicago and Washington DC are major cities with lots of problems. Hand out guns there willy nilly and you actually think things will IMPROVE? No wonder you're never going to solve this problem...

16 hours ago · Like · 1

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Patrick

Linus-but why would the police need THEIR guns? It's a serious question, I'm not being a smartass about it...if all the bad guys turn in their guns, then the police would have no reason to have them either, right?

Can you name ofr us a single person that has been killed by a gun? Not killed by someone using a gun...but rather the gun actually killing the person? Obviously you can't. What we need to address is the reason a tiny segment of the population illegally use firearms.

As for Vermont residents needing to protect themselves...yep...they do. There's little crime there (like in most areas where guns are legal to carry concealed and are "shall issue" states) due to the simple fact that the bad guys don't want to get shot...

Think about it this way. If you were going to hold someone up...would you do it in an area where there's a good chance your victim would be able to defend themselves, or would you go after a "soft" target...one which you KNEW wasn't armed?

Put another way...if you were going to pick a fight with someone, would it be a black belt, or someone you knew you could beat?

12 hours ago · Like

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Ivy patrick, i love you but you are...leave him alone and stop trying to debate your right wing issues with my friends! :) x

11 hours ago · Like

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  Linus Wallin Hey, I don't mind!

  11 hours ago · Like · 1

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Ivy oo linus...lol ;) you just open yourself to a whole lot of back and forthness..lol

11 hours ago · Like

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  Linus Wallin

And there it is. Guns don't kill people - bad guys kill people. Right. Because there really are two types of people in this world; good and bad. We all know that. Or at least those of us who failed to develop an understanding of human nature beyond a Disney movie level.

More guns mean more violence, at least according to all statistics. The simple fact is that where people carry guns, there is violence. I live in Sweden where people in general don’t carry or own guns. Some people do, and hence, the police do too. In the best of worlds, the patrolling officer wouldn’t carry a firearm. Where this is practiced, crime tends to be less violent too.
Also, take peek at firearm related violence in the western world. Where do you think most shootings occur? Where people have less guns or where they can “protect themselves”? And the U.S. has a larger population than most other countries but the statistics are based on percentage. Is it because the U.S has a lot of bad guys or because of all the guns?

In the U.S., people killed by gunfire during a felony represent less than 20% of cases, whereas people killed by gunfire during a heated argument represent more than 30%. Do you seriously believe more guns would solve the problem?

Finally, you ask me who I’d pick a fight with. I wouldn’t. But if I was in a fight with someone who was a black belt, I would sure want to have a gun so I could protect myself. And someone would die. And neither of us is able to say whether the good guy or the bad guy died, because the world doesn’t work like that. There is no evil, but there is pain. And pain can make us do things that cause suffering. Maybe that’s why I picked a fight to begin with, because I sure didn’t do it because I’m a bad guy. I’m not a bad guy – if you ask ME. Someone else might think I am, though. Who’s to judge? Are you a good guy or a bad guy, Patrick?

10 hours ago · Like · 1

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Patrick

Not debating...and not right wing issues...I beleive they're issues for ALL...and I'd dearly LOVE to have someone explain it to me...

Linus-you live in Sweden...where guns are effectively banned...so why is it that "some people" carry them? Don't they obey the law? THAT'S the problem...passing gun control laws has ZERO effect on law abiding citizens...I think that we can agree on that at least, can't we?

I KNOW that more shootings (per capita) occur where people are NOT allowed to protect themselves...when guns are banned, ONLY the law abiding people actually lose their guns. The bad guys keep them. How often do you hear about a mass shooting where the victims are all carrying guns?

The reason there is a somewhat higher rate of killings depending upon the statistics you use (and your source) is because in the US there's little respect for life...this can be traced to the decline in family values...which in turn is linked to the poorly run social programs in this country, where people are encouraged to NOT become productive members of society...

Where are you getting your statistic that 20% of the shootings weren't felonies, and that 30% were simply "heat of the moment and I happened to be legally carrying a gun"?

As for you picking a fight...why wouldn't you? Because you're a law abiding citizen...the thought experiment was so you'd see how the thought process of a criminal would go. It's obvious that the criminal would be more apt to go after someone who could not defend themselves...

There is "no evil"? Really? There is no good or bad, but rather someone's "feelings"? How do you feel about child rape? What about Hitler? Stalin? Kidnapping? Are you ok with that because someone might feel it's OK?

8 hours ago · Like

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Patrick As for if I'm a good guy or a bad guy...I'm neither...and I'm both...

8 hours ago · Unlike · 1

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  Linus Wallin Everyone is neither and both. That's my point. So's a child rapist and so was Hitler.

  6 hours ago · Like

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Patrick Linus-and if your child was being raped...would you take action to stop it using violence (or a gun if it was handy)...or would you simply call the police and hope they show up?

6 hours ago · Like

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Ivy ‎@patrick..that is a weak argument and scenario...and poor excuse for where it's leading...the contradictions of the right wing--supportive of the death penalty and yet un-supportive of a woman's right to choose...smh why don't just shoot of all each other and just wipe out the human species...extremist republicans and t-partiers are bloody fascists and anti-Christians (or of any good social morals)!!! good gravy...

5 hours ago · Like

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  Linus Wallin

If my child was being raped (Allah forbid) I'd shoot, naturally. And that's exactly what I mean! I'd shoot the guy who was hurting my child. I'd never shoot someone over material possessions, but someone else might shoot a guy for stealing his car or for trespassing. That's not the kind of society I want to be in.

Some criminals will always be able to get guns, that's true, even in Sweden. But the USE of guns will only increase as people arm themselves for ”protection”. Crime doesn't go away because the risk of being hurt exists. Crime rates, when it comes to felonies, don't go down when punishments are more severe. You live in the only country in the western world that still practises capital punishment (so much for pro life) and that's not helping.

You talk about family values but you and I probably have very little in common when it comes to those, and yet we are probably both law abiding (for the most part – I jaywalk and sometimes download stuff illegally – please don't shoot me!). I live in a country where an extreme minority practise organized religion . Gay people are people with the same rights as other people, including the right to adopt, for example. I grew up with full frontal nudity on daytime tv (and sometimes during kid's shows). Very few people would even think of denying a woman her right to choose. We believe in a strong government to protect us from extreme capitalism, but also strong checks on the government to protect us from any wrong doing on their part (peopel are people), because we know that we ARE the government, and we work for us, while corporations only have one objective – making money. That's not Replublican family values, I'm sure. And yet, where's the violence? Where are the drugs? Where are the guns?

Criminals here don't use guns, because there's no need. Guns are pretty much limited to organized crime and there's not too much of that. If store owners had guns, more criminals would need them, and people would have to use them. We value even the life of a robber higher than the money he might take. He'll get caught eventually, but if he's shot we've lost a fellow human being. If you're desperate enough to rob someone, you'll do it no matter what. But if your victim is likely to carry a gun, you'll be more likely to carry one too, and to use it.

But look, Patrick, I'm pretty sure we'll never convince each other of anything. I'd be happy to let you have the last word, but let's leave it after that, shall we? We're spamming our dear friend Ivy.

4 hours ago · Like · 1

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Patrick

The society you describe is is one which only exists in myth. I don't know of any modern society where such a thing is common. In fact, history shows just the opposite. When more law abiding citizens own guns, crime drops.
As it stands now, you have trained fighters who would kill someone for breaking into their house or stealing their car...shall we ban all forms of martial arts because someone MIGHT use their training to hurt a criminal? What about knives? Baseball bats? Bows?

Capital punishment DOES work...If a criminal is put to death, I guarantee that he will NEVER commit another crime...whereas if he's simply locked up in one of our lenient prisons (cable TV is a "right"?) he can, and often will, commit more crimes when released...or while in prison against other inmates.

Where has the unlawful use of firearms ever increased as more law abiding citizens own guns? I'm unaware of any city or state where that has been the case.

I'm unaware of ANYONE in the US wanting to deny a woman ANY right to choose...some people value human life and would prefer to make killing an unborn child illegal...yes....but that has nothing to do with a woman choosing to take action which could result in pregnancy (and please don't bring up rape or incest...the VAST majority of people would allow exceptions for that)...

A "strong government"? Can you please tell us what your income taxes start at? I happen to know...but I'd like to hear it from you...and what is all that money spent on, and how efficiently? Yes...corporations DO have one goal...making money...as you have one goal in you going to work every day...providing for your family (making money)....how is that different?

There may be no need for criminals to use guns...but they DO use other weapons...and fear...and since you have no means to protect yourself...shouldn't the government do something about that? Not to mention your increasing crime rate (currently about 151 per 1000 citizens, whereas the US is 3466 crimes per 100,000).... but if someone makes a choice to rob someone knowing it will likely hurt or kill them...who's fault is that? I'm not concerned with someone who knowingly takes an action which will result in their injury or death...if you are hell bent on running head first into a brick wall, should I really concern myself if you complain about a headache afterwards?

I AM sure that we'll never convince each other...I grew up in a society where it is a man's job to protect his family...and in order to do so, I need to have at my disposal the means to do so...in your society, you didn't have any such need...maybe the criminals over there are simply more polite :) and they'll ask you if you mind being robbed (obviously kidding)....

But I HAVE enjoyed the discourse...and I appreciate my cousin not kicking us off :)

Hey, IVy, are you going to be in my area Christmas Eve? We're having a celebration at my place...we'd love to have you over. Ray and Elaine will be there...and the more the merrier

59 minutes ago · Like

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Patrick Ivy-I don't see being pro-life and pro death penalty as being contradictory...the child made no decision that would result in its death....the convicted murderer did...

as for the racism remark...take a look at the video/pictures from tea party rallies and the OWS...look at the percentage of minorities and you might be surprised (not to mention the supporters of OWS include some rather questionable groups) :)

56 minutes ago · Like

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Ivy

good god patrick...I don't care..."debating" with you is going to go no-where...we've been through this please, it's not funny to me...i don't care...your views are based on your opinions and gathered data and so vice versa...I post what re...See More

40 minutes ago · Like

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Patrick ‎:) always like when people are direct with me :) Love ya cuz...have a great evening....

36 minutes ago · Like · 1

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Linus Wallin Hey, Patrick! You ask some direct questions, so I'll answer a few I feel are relevant.

Law abiding citizens are allowed to carry guns in the U.S. and no other country in the west has more gun related violence. How's that for ”when more law abiding citizens own guns, crime drops”. And about that law abiding thing: for every legitimate shooting at during a home invation, for example, there are four unintentional shootings.

Martial arts experts have to work pretty damn hard to kill someone unintentionally or intentionally, for that matter. And few people accidentally kill someone with a bat. Also, good luck killing everyone who breaks the law so they don't do it again. Even suicides are interesting to look at. Guns: effective about 90% or the time. Other methods about 4% of the time. But since you only care to protect people who haven't been born yet and those who never make mistakes in their lives, I guess it doesn't matter to you.

I guess it seems weird to you, but I really love my job. I work as a teacher. I truly care about my students and about their lives. I could be providing a lot more money for my family if I chose to do something else, but I come home a caring, loving, enriched person every day. Of course I wouldn't do it for free, but money doesn't come first. If I was offered more money at a fictional school that mistreated students, I'd never do it. A corporation would. Corporations will do ANYTHING they are allowed to do in the name of profit, and only regulations and a strong government can keep them from literally killing, maiming, and working people to death.

We also disagree on what makes people criminals. I say it's your tough, every man for himself society and the unchecked capitalism that leaves people in dispair. Not everyone had the same opportunities growing up. Most of us turn out the way we were expected to turn out, for better or worse. You like to make people work for it, try harder, and you make them suffer poverty and homelessness or put them in prison if they don't make it. We all need society, especially those of us who don't grow up believing in ourselves. This goes for the poor, the minorities, the unwanted. What do you think makes these groups more likely to end up involved in crime and substance abuse? That they're natural born bad guys? Evil? Stupid? My society doesn't look at people like that the way you do.

I pay a LOT of money in taxes. I still live an excellent life. No excess, but hey! Some people who can't get a job will feed their families today thanks to me. People here don't need insurance when they get sick. No family was ruined by cancer treatment, and no one's kid had to give up college because mommy had to have an operation. I had the immense privilage of staying at home with my daughter for half a year and the government paid for it. In fact, my girlfriend and I had 480 days to split between us as we saw fit, and our employers had no right to fire us or treat us differently. Also, education is free for everyone. You don't need a scholarship or a rich daddy to go to college, you need a brain. Politicians here can be elected even if they run on a promise to raise taxes, because we love a society that exists for everyone, not just the financially successful. There are places in your country where the infrastructure is collapsing because there are no funds for road works, bridge maintainance and so on. And any official who tries to raise taxes will be voted off next term.

It's not my job to protect or provide for my family, or not JUST mine. My partner and I are just that: partners. We both work, raise our daughter and take care of the family. I have no problems with equality.

Take care, man!

8 minutes ago · Like